[split] Knowing that you cannot know

[Louisabell]

This topic of what is known, what cannot be known, etc. is a pretty interesting one to me. These are questions I ask myself a lot. For me, knowing that you cannot know shows up as being able to hold a capacity for ambiguity in one's life. I see this ambiguity as being more qualitative than quantitative, therefore being able to be carried into all our interactions in various degrees. I see how the more ambiguity we can integrate into our perceptions, the more open we can be to alternative possibilities or yet-to-be-conceived-of solutions to any problems afoot.

So there is a power that can be harnessed in knowing that we don't know, but that also needn't detract from the power that can be found in thought or belief. To believe in certain things, such as our own capacity to complete a task, is extremely helpful, moving us to cause effects in this world that tend towards that which is beneficial for us and others. If we didn't believe we could complete a task, then we might not even bother trying it in the first place.

So, as Black Dragon spoke to so well, everything that we have at our disposal: our intellect, our will, our faith, our intuition, our capacity for ambiguity and our capacity for belief, all of it is most important and useful to us, and to STO polarisation when all these facilities are employed in service to the light.

However, I do hold the opinion that the current culture we live in is skewed towards a reliance on belief, and a little bit more space for ambiguity or uncertainty wouldn't go astray.

[Patrick]

[Ymarsakar]

"No, there is no hope of "bringing" harmony (to parse words for a moment), methinks each independent voice must find its own harmonic tuning to bring to the whole."

That's some Divine wisdom there.

And I am not joking.

If people thought 3rd density was confusion, wait until Bring4th density comes online.

[Sacred Fool]

 
OMG, is Patrick still trying to show that he nose what he's talking about?  Or can he see that he nose nothing?

Just kidding.  Nice decoration, dude. 

Keeping walking towards that cliff.

  

[Patrick]

I am pondering the nature of how information is shared both by STO and STS sources. (“Only a Sith deals in absolutes.”)

It seems to me that STO sources will wish to refrain from making any absolute statements. And so they would not even want to say that they are antidogmatic.

Antidogmatic would be like being anti-STS. The Confederation is not really anti-STS.

Not espousing dogma does not mean you are opposed to dogma. There is a not-so-subtle difference.

That seems to be along the lines of where my brain fart happened. Because I was operating under the point of view that Confederation teachings are antidogmatic...

[Sacred Fool]

 
If you want my opinion, Patrick, read on.

I think you're making things way too complex.  You can just call it a simple case of confirmation bias and walk on.  You wanted to believe "X", you arranged your thoughts to support this and you fought to make it so until the end.

With that pattern of ideation in mind, now take a look at a few threads on these forums and see if that's not a pattern which endlessly repeats.  I confess my bias, you offer yours, we arrange our thoughts to support these....on and on.

A person posts about "Y."  Another confirms it, another denies it.........all mainly based upon pre-existing bias while maybe not so much thought actually occurs.

I'm not saying this is all that happens here.  I'm just pointing out that your clownish episode was nothing original....said the other Fool.


  

[Patrick]

The complexity for me stems from this dual status of poster/moderator.

Otherwise I am quite content to just share my opinion and be done with it.

But now I must also somehow find a way to do this honor/duty without hopefully blowing too many internal circuits.

I guess I am trying to figure out how the Confederation would do this job. They would probably not let their internal communications be taken over by STS.

Questioner: Then how could we solve this paradox?

Ra: I am Ra. Consider, if you will, that you have no ability not to serve the Creator since all is the Creator. In your individual growth patterns appear the basic third-density choice. Further, there are overlaid memories of the positive polarizations of your home density. Thus your particular orientation is strongly polarized towards service to others and has attained wisdom as well as compassion.

You do not have merely two opposite requests for service. You will find an infinite array of contradictory requests for information or lack of information from this source if you listen carefully to those whose voices you may hear. This is all one voice to which you resonate upon a certain frequency. This frequency determines your choice of service to the One Creator. As it happens this group’s vibratory patterns and those of Ra are compatible and enable us to speak through this instrument with your support. This is a function of free will.

A portion, seemingly, of the Creator rejoices at your choice to question us regarding the evolution of spirit. A seemingly separate portion would wish for multitudinous answers to a great range of queries of a specific nature. Another seemingly separate group of your peoples would wish this correspondence through this instrument to cease, feeling it to be of a negative nature. Upon the many other planes of existence there are those whose every fiber rejoices at your service and those such as the entity of whom you have been speaking which wish only to terminate the life upon the third-density plane of this instrument. All are the Creator. There is one vast panoply of biases and distortions, colors and hues, in an unending pattern. In the case of those with whom you, as entities and as a group, are not in resonance, you wish them love, light, peace, joy, and bid them well. No more than this can you do for your portion of the Creator is as it is and your experience and offering of experience, to be valuable, needs be more and more a perfect representation of who you truly are. Could you, then, serve a negative entity by offering the instrument’s life? It is unlikely that you would find this a true service. Thus you may see in many cases the loving balance being achieved, the love being offered, light being sent, and the service of the service-to-self oriented entity gratefully acknowledged while being rejected as not being useful in your journey at this time. Thus you serve One Creator without paradox.

Taking this in the context of these forums. How would it look like?

"...In the case of those with whom you, as entities and as a group, are not in resonance, you wish them love, light, peace, joy, and bid them well..."

Are we one group?  Doesn't seem so. Is the goal even being one group?

"in resonance" seems to imply some kind of consensus.

How much "not in resonance" is too much and would require "bidding them well"?

--

But yeah, it's quite possible that I am indeed making things way too complex. Yet I don't think this is just going to go away from my mind. Some sort of closure is being sought.

[Ymarsakar]

Dark ice cream or light ice cream, matters not absolute toppings matter not. I eat what I want to eat.

*: Eats Mad Dog 6 million scoville pepper extract. Eats Mad Dog Reserve Inferno. Dirty Dick's Hot Pepper Sauce with a Tropical Twist.

Mad Dog 357 Scorpion
Adoboloco Fiya Fiya.

And Da Bomb

As the full context quote above says, understanding the Law of One for graduation to sixth density, is not of the 3rd density understanding. Just eat your ice cream. https://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthre...#pid296432

[sillypumpkins]

i see the potential for struggle there patrick.

i'm reminded of something q'uo (or Ra) once said about service. I did some digging but couldn't find it. the quote spoke to, how once you have to ask how you can best be of service, you are already disregarding your heart's guidance. it was something like that. i hope i didn't butcher it too much, but that's what i got from it.

based on what you're writing here, it seems to me like you have some "idea" of what this community should ideally look like, based on confederation teachings. i really wonder how well a moderator can serve this community when they're approaching their role from a position of intellect rather than their heart. it just seems to be confusing

[Ymarsakar]

i see the potential for struggle there patrick.

i'm reminded of something q'uo (or Ra) once said about service. I did some digging but couldn't find it. the quote spoke to, how once you have to ask how you can best be of service, you are already disregarding your heart's guidance. it was something like that. i hope i didn't butcher it too much, but that's what i got from it.

based on what you're writing here, it seems to me like you have some "idea" of what this community should ideally look like, based on confederation teachings. i really wonder how well a moderator can serve this community when they're approaching their role from a position of intellect rather than their heart. it just seems to be confusing

It is also missing the unanimous decision and team work nature of the Counsel of 6.

The idea of a team work counsel meeting is to erase the individual biases and prejudices, at least somewhat. This idea is adopted, but it is not understood.

[Minyatur]

I guess I am trying to figure out how the Confederation would do this job. They would probably not let their internal communications be taken over by STS.

I think the issue lies more with interpreting whether something is STS or not, when it does not directly label itself as such. Sounds like the recent disagreements regarding vaccines stemmed from an opposing view of what the STS polarity seeks within this situation. One side believes the STS polarity wants people to get vaccinated and the other believes the STS polarity does not want people to get vaccinated, so both sides pretty much have the idea of doing the exact same work of getting in the way of the STS polarity in what it wants to do. It's fine to have an opinion, but to get into the role of defending against being taken over by STS, you have to judge the polarity of others and think you know for sure what the truth is on a subject.

I think Confederation teachings are a bit about not being overly concerned by this stuff to begin with. It simply blocks you from seeking the heart of yourself and the Creator.

[Ymarsakar]

A control method is a 3 game monty. Meaning, no matter what you choose, it will be the wrong one. This is what causes the "recycling" and repetition, without much harvest.

People who are not involved with criminals, nor with ferreting out/investigating criminal activities, nor discerning con games and fraud networks, should be extra careful in thinking they "know" a control network, when they have not only zero experience with this kind of behavior but completely diametrically opposite core beliefs driving them.

Use a thief to catch a thief, not an honest person. They won't get it.

P.S. The moment an entity starts talking about what they think is STS absolutely here or anywhere, in their heads, the Youniverse will provide you an opportunity to understand what it really is. Then you will not be pretending to know, you will know by right of having suffered it, this is called experience and your right to know. If you keep talking about it, keep thinking about it, keep pushing the "I know card", you are hitting the "I have a right to know" button. But the button is labeled Service to Self at the expense of all.

This is why people here, with a tiny bit of spiritual book knowledge, when they start labeling individuals as STS against the free will of those individuals, or calling everything and anything "fear based" because THEY ARE IN FEAR ALL THE TIME AS EGO REACTION, they detune automatically, immediately, and catastrophically into the negative polarity. Because this is their Youniverse giving them the "experience" sought after.

[flofrog]

I think Confederation teachings are a bit about not being overly concerned by this stuff to begin with. It simply blocks you from seeking the heart of yourself and the Creator.

It's in fact interesting that when looking back as a whole at the 106 sessions, the subject of STS is not that prevalent...
I mean, apart from the beginning sessions mentioning Orion, it mainly happens when Ra comments on the visit of the 5D negative, so on the whole it is minimal.

[Ymarsakar]

I think Confederation teachings are a bit about not being overly concerned by this stuff to begin with. It simply blocks you from seeking the heart of yourself and the Creator.

It's in fact interesting that when looking back as a whole at the 106 sessions, the subject of STS is not that prevalent...
I mean, apart from the beginning sessions mentioning Orion,  it mainly happens when Ra comments on the visit of the 5D negative, so on the whole it is minimal.

Iamraw was directly giving aid when asked in those situations, because the 3 people's lives were being affected. And Don and others were likely stressing out over the unknown. To them, it was better to have a logical label and to get practical solutions.

When Patrick's Logic is I Absolutely know that nobody absolutely knows anything, so I know anyone who disagrees needs to go bye bye from here, this is not in any way shape or form something the Confederation would even attempt.

That's because Don had begun closing the heart and bypassing it to reach 6th indigo, but iamraw only ever warned about it indirectly. No direct labels, as that is a free will infringement issue.

1. If you are telling someone they are STS, you are imposing your vibrations on them, telling them stuff they may not want to know, if true.

2. If it is false, then you are imposing your vibrations on them, making them think negative stuff that does not apply to them.

Either way, you fell for it if you play the dark 3 game mony, thinking this game "you gonna win". Nobody here can win. If you want to win, stop playing the game.

[Patrick]

...based on what you're writing here, it seems to me like you have some "idea" of what this community should ideally look like, based on confederation teachings...

Yes you are right, I do have "some" idea. Mostly it's in the guidelines and mission statement already.

It's not like these forums are simply provided as a generic open platform for discussions of any kind.

...i really wonder how well a moderator can serve this community when they're approaching their role from a position of intellect rather than their heart. it just seems to be confusing

I will admit I was under the impression I was approaching it from a compassionate-wisdom point of view, where the heart informs the intellect.

The intellect cannot be taken out of the equation completely since it is the one typing on the keyboard. The heart alone does not know how to (at least mine doesn't).

[Patrick]

It is also missing the unanimous decision and team work nature of the Counsel of 6.

The idea of a team work counsel meeting is to erase the individual biases and prejudices, at least somewhat. This idea is adopted, but it is not understood.

Far from me the idea of acting alone in such matters.

I am pondering in general here, but this pondering even if it were to reach some kind of conclusion, would only be my personal voice/opinion within the CSC.

[Spaced]

Something that Ra mentions multiple times is that placing importance on specific information attracts negative influence (26.36, 37.4, 62.23).

From my perspective, when one is operating from the assumption that they have access to absolute truth then they will not be open to an equal exchange of ideas. There is an element of control where information and catalyst will be twisted and contorted to reinforce that understanding rather than admit that one could be mistaken. Conversation becomes a one-way street and any dissenting opinions will be forced to submit to the scrutiny of the other party before being dismissed on whatever grounds seem appropriate at the time.

I don't think this situation is uncommon, it is something that I have certainly struggled with. Knowledge and personal understandings are necessary to navigate the systems of meaning in which we are embedded, the problem comes when one is not able to adapt those understandings or to discard them when they are found lacking. Knowledge and understanding are tools that can help us approach truth, but are not the truth in and of themselves so we should not grow too attached to them.

One story that Ra tells of their 3rd density experience which I have always found intriguing is the case of the two positive 5D wanderer who came to help with their harvest and ended up polarizing negatively. The catalyst for this change in polarity was the focus on specific knowledge.

89.35 Questioner: What was the catalyst for their change?

Ra: I am Ra. In our peoples there was what may be considered, from the viewpoint of wisdom, an overabundance of love. These entities looked at those still in darkness and saw that those of a neutral or somewhat negative viewpoint found such harmony, shall we say, sickening. The Wanderers felt that a more wisdom-oriented way of seeking love could be more appealing to those in darkness.

First one entity began its work. Quickly the second found the first. These entities had agreed to serve together and so they did, glorifying the One Creator, but not as they intended. About them were soon gathered those who found it easy to believe that a series of specific knowledges and wisdoms would advance one towards the Creator. The end of this was the graduation into fourth-density negative of the Wanderers, which had much power of personality, and some small deepening of the negatively polarized element of those not polarizing positively. There was no negative harvest as such.

Anyhow, this is just the level of understanding that I am coming from at this moment, if this does not resonate with you please disregard.

[Patrick]

I think the issue lies more with interpreting whether something is STS or not, when it does not directly label itself as such. Sounds like the recent disagreements regarding vaccines stemmed from an opposing view of what the STS polarity seeks within this situation. One side believes the STS polarity wants people to get vaccinated and the other believes the STS polarity does not want people to get vaccinated, so both sides pretty much have the idea of doing the exact same work of getting in the way of the STS polarity in what it wants to do. It's fine to have an opinion, but to get into the role of defending against being taken over by STS, you have to judge the polarity of others and think you know for sure what the truth is on a subject.

I think Confederation teachings are a bit about not being overly concerned by this stuff to begin with. It simply blocks you from seeking the heart of yourself and the Creator.

That is why I am asking about groupings and what Ra told us on the subject of groupings not in alignment.

For the example of the vaccine thread. Once it is recognized that there are two diametrically opposed viewpoints, then there is nothing else to discuss in between these two groups. We can just move on and continue discussing our other mutual spiritual interests.

I don't think we want to end up with only one group all having the same ideas.

It's just a matter of noticing it when such groupings exists so that efforts are not wasted in futile communications.

This lessens disharmony on things where harmony is not sought because of irreconcilable viewpoints.

[Sacred Fool]

That is why I am asking about groupings and what Ra told us on the subject of groupings not in alignment.

For the example of the vaccine thread. Once it is recognized that there are two diametrically opposed viewpoints, then there is nothing else to discuss in between these two groups. We can just move on and continue discussing our other mutual spiritual interests.

I don't think we want to end up with only one group all having the same ideas.

It's just a matter of noticing it when such groupings exists so that efforts are not wasted in futile communications.

This lessens disharmony on things where harmony is not sought because of irreconcilable viewpoints.

 
Could we say that this perspective is trying to approach a yellow ray problem on a yellow ray level?

And would an entity looking at the overall situation on a green ray level have different concerns?

   

[Patrick]

Could we say that this perspective is trying to approach a yellow ray problem on a yellow ray level?

And would an entity looking at the overall situation on a green ray level have different concerns?

From a purely green-ray level, the entity might simply have given a pass on the honor/duty of moderating.

I do hope that meditating on this will help bring a solution that comes from a viewpoint that is much higher level than just green ray. Because indeed my yellow-ray brain is not finding an obvious solution.

Some blue-ray, at least, will need to come into the mix I believe. Which would be fitting, since I am heavily working on blue-ray and its relationship with the other centers (especially yellow and green).

[Ymarsakar]

"From my perspective, when one is operating from the assumption that they have access to absolute truth then they will not be open to an equal exchange of ideas. "

It's not due to "equal exchange of ideas". That is a human inter relationship concept.

What the negative does is the same as the positive. Read the First Session and the one about how both channeled polarities use the same method of penetrating through the Crown Chakra. Except the Negative penetrates and then affects the lower chakras, inputting imbalanced energies, which then indirectly cause the human avatar to go haywire and act out (become crazy or violent or something else).

The Positive faction uses this penetration of the crown chakra, to control and tune (play an instrument, as Q'Uo Hatonn channels talk about) the avatar as an instrument for communication. This means control of the heart rate in trance state, the motor control system, the voice modulation system, and in unchanneled mode, this is simply inputting thoughts, impression, images, or something else so that the human can then attempt to interpret this telepathic contact.

So both negative and positive factions are penetrating through the 7th chakra to control the lower chakras of the human being, for contact/channeling purposes.

The opening given to negatives is the process of catalyst. When an avatar has an imbalanced chakra system, that means they have unresolved trauma issues and shadow sides. Things that they are not conscious of or have rejected. The higher self allows the negatives to make the chakras off balanced, because that entity's energy is already off balance. So it makes it so off balanced that it becomes catastrophically noticeable. So the higher self uses this to get the avatar (human identity) to notice this and fix it.

However, when an entity has achieved the Christ Consciousness or Tibetan styles of Moksha/Liberation/Samadhi, aka the bliss or peace beyond understanding stage, there is "nothing" imbalanced in the Mind Body Spirit complex to "prank". There's nothing to prank. There is no opening. There is no opportunity for catalyst, thus the negative can only call itself out and then promptly lose all power and then go away.

In the Indian traditions, they understand that a certain type of guru will make you get mad, insane, and so forth, because that is their way of providing you a catalyst to shake you up and get you out of your Wheel of Karma.

In the West, people just think this is trolling and prefers to ignore the problem or project it as "that other guy doing something to me". Spiritual seekers that do the actual work, begin understanding that everything that happens to them, is basically them doing it to themselves until they learn the lesson. They place less and less priority on external factors like "who is sts or spreading fear" and more on "why do I react this way, and how do I change myself".

This is the crucial difference between people who read books and think they are doing New Age work, vs those seekers who are actually seeking and doing the work.

[sillypumpkins]

For the example of the vaccine thread. Once it is recognized that there are two diametrically opposed viewpoints, then there is nothing else to discuss in between these two groups.

i don't know patrick.....

would this apply to individuals as well? as in, if someone says "patrick I disagree with your viewpoint" and you say "well I disagree with yours", then there's nothing to discuss, just by virtue of the fact that you disagree (on the surface at least)? that feels...... awful cold. like a stalemate.

[Patrick]

For the example of the vaccine thread. Once it is recognized that there are two diametrically opposed viewpoints, then there is nothing else to discuss in between these two groups.

i don't know patrick.....

would this apply to individuals as well? as in, if someone says "patrick I disagree with your viewpoint" and you say "well I disagree with yours", then there's nothing to discuss, just by virtue of the fact that you disagree (on the surface at least)? that feels...... awful cold. like a stalemate.

I guess it depends on what the intents of the interlocutors are. But in many cases, I would say yes. It's just the old "we agree to disagree" in the spirit of keeping things harmonious.

Maybe you see it as cold because you imagine the parties reaching this "stalemate" at the slightest disagreement ?

But that is not what I am alluding to. You reach that state when all is said basically.

Continuing to argue after that point falls into the trying to convince category. You are no longer sharing your point of view per se.

Imagine, for example, two persons trying to understand each others, but they are not even willing to ascribe the same meaning to words. Are they even talking to each others then?

The Creation is not forcing entities to agree with each others, otherwise STS would not even exist.

Instead the natural state of things seems to be that groupings of like minded people gather together to seek more effectively.

It seems to me that the most loving and harmonious attitude is to do as Ra suggested.

"...In the case of those with whom you, as entities and as a group, are not in resonance, you wish them love, light, peace, joy, and bid them well..."

[Louisabell]

We'll can't you also have a bias towards the idea that the "changing of minds" is what is ideal and that this is the decisive factor of what progress looks like? What if everyone just changed their minds on a whim, and we were all incredibly impressionable with one another? Not sure how that would serve more so. As soon as we developed some cohesive sense of the reality around us, it would be changed on a dime.

So maybe there is more to it than just the holding of one's viewpoint vs aligning with the viewpoints of others. Maybe there is something to look at beneath that. And then maybe something to look at even beneath what is beneath all of that.

And hey, at least we're sharing space.

[Patrick]

Certainly. That is why I am mentioning intentions of the interlocutors.

What happens when at least one side of an argument is not holding the intent to be open to changing their mind?

[Louisabell]

Certainly. That is why I am mentioning intentions of the interlocutors.

What happens when at least one side of an argument is not holding the intent to be open to changing their mind?

Maybe the strength of one's refusal to have a change of mind is equal to the amount of one's unacknowledged longing to experience a change of heart? What kind of change would be more significant for someone, afterall.

So how do we acknowledge the unacknowledged?

But who knows? Maybe they're just really really convinced. Confirmation bias doesn't happen in a day, it's rarely reversed in a moment. And hey, maybe they're right and we're the ones that are wrong.

I'm in a very question asking mood today...

[Patrick]

Asking questions is a good thing!

[Ymarsakar]

For the example of the vaccine thread. Once it is recognized that there are two diametrically opposed viewpoints, then there is nothing else to discuss in between these two groups.

i don't know patrick.....

would this apply to individuals as well? as in, if someone says "patrick I disagree with your viewpoint" and you say "well I disagree with yours", then there's nothing to discuss, just by virtue of the fact that you disagree (on the surface at least)? that feels...... awful cold. like a stalemate.

No heart chakra. Just 5th chakra and 3rd/2nd chakras activating.

[Patrick]

What does it say about our own heart when we are judging others to have no heart?

[Ymarsakar]

What does it say about our own heart when we are judging others to have no heart?

What does it say when you are judging that I am judging others to have no heart?