Falling upwards from Cassiopaea and landing here

[Asolsutsesvyl]

After discussing various things here, including "Comparing Ra and the Cassiopaeans", I thought it time to finally post an introduction.

The first part of this is based on an unposted personal update I wrote for the Cassiopaea forum in December 2017, but couldn't bring myself to post. It describes the inner events which, eventually, led to leaving that community.

In the terms of this community, it could be called my personal "wanderer's awakening". As I learned, such a thing is ultimately not compatible with the community I was part of before.

I have been much less active for the last two years. What I have gone through, in inner experience, has simply become too much to discuss. [...]

I have lived through an inner drama which has taken up the entire "surface" of such experience (thought, feeling, sensation, etc.). It began clear and structured, but later became chaotic. I have been pendulating between structuring it all in my mind, and having the volume and variety of it all break down my frameworks and means of structuring.

On the emotional side of it all, issues that had been kept in line or under the surface through willpower, and others I wasn't clearly aware of beforehand, inflamed and - for periods of time - swallowed up my inner life until some point was reached when they were replaced by calm and detachment. In turn, there has been pendulation between this "process", calmer states, and positively experienced states different from anything that has gone before them in my life.

Below I've included quotes from what I wrote in mid-2016, which partially described things as of then.

Long story short, in August last year, part of the unconscious self broke through into communication with the conscious self. The inner dialogue became bidirectional - I both thought thoughts from myself, and the larger self beyond the conscious mind formed thoughts directed to my conscious mind. Along with this, a long sequence of inner symbolic presentations (which formed in a kind of dynamic improvisation) unfolded. These were interspersed and interlinked with this inner dialogue, and with recapitulating my past very extensively and coming to see new themes, and old themes in a more unified way. I also explored a very large range of thoughts and feelings related to the future (in large part, working through old fears and false assumptions, through inner scenarios where I explored them and their consequences to the point of breaking them down, when it led to absurdities and I got the inner space to question my old beliefs).

In outward appearance, I've been more focused in thought, somewhat daydreamy, and spent a whole lot of time sitting by myself as well as in bed. My father basically concluded that I was going through a depression, which is part of the picture, and I've not told my parents about the more involved aspects of the inner experience, since that would probably just lead to them panicking at the idea of such strong feelings and unusual things in inner life. (Just telling them about the strongest feelings I've worked through would probably be way too much of a shock for them, so I'm keeping it all private.)

While the whole process has gone on, I've only been able to follow the process. Often this meant that, instead of diving into books, or anxiously beginning to do things, I was forced to slow down and work through emotional knots deep inside. The 'range' of what I've been able to focus on and do has been limited throughout, and shifted along with the various stages of the process. Throughout it all - recapitulation, and exploring things in active imagination (as a co-participant of what the process came up with), and times when less went on in the mind - there was something like the 'pendulation' described by Peter Levine in processing stuck emotional charge. Strong feelings and bodily tensions came into focus, my attention became semi-distanced while observing it and also experiencing a sense of very strong energy buzzing through my entire being, and then part of the 'layer' of tensions and stuck emotion dissolved over a short time, and then the whole thing receded. Later on, from time to time, further 'rounds' were gone through. And someimes implicit memories were processed, and I felt sensations corresponding to environments and situations earlier in life. And from time to time, some thought would form and present a simple insight into my past and present (particularly the emotional picture) which I had not been able to arrive at on my own before.

The whole thing began after a period of inner work on emotion in the summer of 2015. Inspired by positive ideals (in part from the forum and in part from books), I strove to be what those ideals amounted to in my heart, while excluding all I saw as part of "the feeding machine".

(In turn, that period followed one of inner upheaval in May, when I lived through fears of spirit attachment. With some inner work followed by networking, I then realized that I was really at odds with and afraid of part of my own psyche.)

When the inner communication began, it presented some general ideas, including that I had spent my life "building yourself up and burning yourself out at the same time", and really needed to heal. The self was also described as "a living, self-modifying program", which can potentially "become an interface between the machine and the higher self". Some symbolic presentations have concerned the realization of the latter.

The general outward shape of it all became that of depression after a few months. There was a kind of high point to the whole experience in the first half of October 2015. After that, there came a series of turning points: in the second half of October, in early-to-mid November, and finally in early December. After that, the inner communication became very noisy and chaotic, and negative emotions became very strongly inflamed. Symbolic experiences began which concerned psychic battles.

However chaotic things became at times, there remained a tendency towards a greater ordering. (A signal larger than the noise is what has convinced me to stay with the whole process and see how it unfolds rather than to seek some way to end it, e.g. conventional "help".) And, in hindsight, without the chaos and the breaking down of simpler attempts at structuring the whole, it wouldn't have been possible to arrive at better ways of structuring. Back then, I could deal with things either being metaphorical or factual, but not as well with more complicated mixtures of the two containing a great deal of ambiguity. My metaphorical thinking was also largely limited to one-to-one, one-to-many, and many-to-one correspondences (unless simply treating something as fiction and not really analyzing it).

During this whole time, I've been less active on the forum, and I've also mostly put work on CassWiki aside. I've been very gradually learning (or beginning to learn) to do something I never could before, which is to relax. (Before, to relax part of my self would always be accompanied by remaining tense in other parts of the self, or even becoming more tense. In part this is still the case, but the overall, constant tension is much reduced.) And I think the way I've been slowly burning out over the years (since late childhood / early teens, or even earlier), in a constant state of intense anxiety and a mixture of other strong emotions which I've been partly dissociated from, but became more conscious of last year, it will take some time to further recover from.

An important result of it all, so far, is that I've finally become able to arrive at a more unified understanding of just about everything I've been trying to understand before. I used to understand some things deeply, and also to connect some things on a larger scale through abstract pattern thinking, but I greatly lacked breadth of comprehension. All the time, I was yanked around between narrow mental corridors, my mind driven deep into them, as well as between them, by strong fears, hopes, resentment, and rigid idealism. There is now more 'space' to connect things more broadly, instead of trying to push further 'into' every subject in an extremely driven way. And it feels as if I have, ahead of me, a journey of rediscovering and striving to further understand everything I've ever tried to understand (along with a great many other things). As if my journey of learning has only just begun in earnest.

I remember a walk I took a bit over a year ago. I felt somehow as if I were 'very old', and trying to make sense of a lifetime's barrage of strong and only half-digested impressions, a mass of things which, if added together rather than explored separately, just turned into a confusion, a question which could not be formulated. Everything I've been through since has broken apart a series of rigid structures in the psyche, and made me process (in a broad variety of ways) everything in my past, and everything I built upon what I simultaneously felt as if I knew and didn't know, and understood and didn't understand.

The past months since August feel as if they 'contain' more than the 8 years prior in my life. And those 8 years (the time since I first found Laura's work) in turn 'contained' more than the 19 years I've lived before that in my life. It's a matter of the quality of what is lived and understood, the range of what is possible to be conscious of at the same time, and also, feeling healthy in a way which I could not have imagined beforehand. Before, I was internally tied up by a metacircular tangle of emotional contradictions.

The stranger contents of my inner life have been left out of the above. (There was a great deal to it which simply could not be said in the Cassiopaea community.)

Part of it strongly pointed me away from the Cassiopaea community. Though not understood clearly at first, very early on it included an indication that I had to leave it all behind. Some personal symbolism, including dreams, from the years before 2015 also seem to lead up to what unfolded then.

More on the last years

After 2017, I continued experiencing the inner process, breaking down and rebuilding my worldview. It dragged out into a curious inner limbo which on the one hand never left me at rest, and where on the other hand I gradually lost most of the heaviest bitterness and impatience I had been living with for very long.

The tunnel vision I still had, connected to the belief system of the previous community, gave way only gradually, in looking at some of what was most deeply rooted. Deep, as in deep-seated emotional associations, and also as in seeing and coming to "understand" very much through a filter, and becoming dependent on that filter.

After 2018, I had "lightened up" enough that I could begin participating here, without the old inner knee-jerk responses at what I would have condescendingly viewed as navel-gazing, things being too "New Agey", etc., in accordance with the old views I had adopted.

Now I am plainly as "crazy", "weird", and "lost" as the regulars here who would fit that description through a Cassiopaean lense. (In turn, the same labels fit the Cassiopaea community even more strongly through conventional eyes.) By Cassiopaean standards, it basically follows that I have "chosen the Matrix", and "fallen" into STS mentality, just like all the other navel-gazing egomaniacs who believe that they can "see" and "think" on their own.

After 2019, formally leaving all association with the previous community behind me, and having opened up about the kind of thought which cannot be shared there, I feel much better. Unburdened.

I'm restarting my online life. It became poisonous after the 00's, but 2020 is my year of hindsight. As for my non-online life, I hope to get it going again on a different footing, able once more to take my own dreams seriously.

[Asolsutsesvyl]

I'll follow that up with more on the Law of One and what brought me here. Though that ties into the transition between the two communities.

(The above post may be both a bit wordy and a bit too abstract/general in its description of that inner process I went through. But it is the clearest and most complete write-up I have, and the earliest, and I thought it best to get it posted.)


I found the Ra material through the writing on the Cassiopaea website. Going by the timestamps on old files I have, I may have first read the old 5 Law of One books beginning in early 2009. I noted the Ra material to be different in some sense, but the strongest sense of that difference was very abstract.

The lawofone.info website is also something I've visited from time to time over the years before I got here. The Cassiopaean channeling is supposedly from the same source, so a fairly big portion of people in the Cassiopaea community read and discuss it from time to time.

When working on the "CassWiki" website, which was up from 2015 and a few years after, and the successor to the older "Esoteric Glossary" and "Cassiopedia", I found it somewhat sad how there was this isolation; a bunch of material on related esoteric topics gathered, but none to work with outside the Cassiopaea community. That wall is there, dividing people belonging to the same "soul families" who are either on the inside or the outside. There's the "Gnosis" people who have a related esoteric connection based on the Fourth Way teaching; and there's the loose collection of sites and communities reachable from lawofone.info; etc.


Why is that wall there, really? Why the enormous divisiveness, which separates those who go with "Cassiopaea" from nearly all who don't, to the extent of other communities with great information and positive ideals not being on speaking terms with the Cassiopaea community?

An old answer, that of the Cassiopaea community, is that everyone else is "asleep", having fallen prey to one or more of the standard stumbling blocks to positive spirituality. They cannot "go there", because they are too afraid, hiding from reality; or too full of themselves, or submerged in a subtly negative philosophy which makes for "passivity" instead of trying to change the world for the better; etc.

Another old answer, that of Montalk and others (though few write their thoughts on such things clearly for others to read), is that the Cassiopaea community became corrupt fairly early on, insulating itself both psychologically and spiritually in a paranoid bubble, from which all faults relating to the whole are projected onto others.

Then there's the loudest voice on the matter during the 00's, a coalition of rather vile trolls and online stalkers going after every key person and thing Cassiopaea-related and drowning out all reasonable criticism, creating enormous emotional polarization and fueling the "us vs. them" division. Montalk thought that they emotionally wrecked the key people, creating the paranoid bubble and all that followed.

Yet another possibility is that it all began with a negative imitation of 6D STO being channeled, its influence "growing down" into fuller manifestation over the years. All the great challenges faced by the core group in the Cassiopaea community are then catalyst successfully used to grow in a negative direction. This explanation makes more sense for those who cannot reconcile the nature of the early Cassiopaeans with that of Ra.


I started out thinking that it had gone wrong, but was still positive at the core, during a time period from late 2015 and on. But I was also aware of long-standing and oft-seen patterns where people think they have "seen the light" and need to show the core group where they have gone wrong to bring it back on track. It never ends well. Such people are always made fools of, at best, and often crash and burn, appearing to mentally degenerate.

Now I have arrived at the last option above: a deceptive imitation growing down through the densities over the years. It's a main option, but I was torn on it until last year. There's an extensive trail of symbolism described in relation to the Cassiopaean Experiment, from decades before the contact and probably into the future. Montalk's explanation does not try to take the full pattern into account. When taken into account, it all appears to have unfolded, basically, according to a "plan" at a higher-density level; there's a meaningful continuity, and great changes such as those Montalk described do not interrupt the symbolic "thread".


Where am I at in relation to this community? The Law of One material remains a main meaningful source of spiritual information for me. I also think that this community has its heart in the right place, though is less intellectually developed than the Cassiopaea community.

The analytical side of L/L Research mostly died with Don Elkins, it seems; I admire the preserving of the original material and what it represents, and the maintaining of a place for exchange related to that; but I also note the intellectual vacuum left behind, and still not filled here.

That vacuum is where the Cassiopaean Experiment entered and took off. They continued the research and analysis not done by L/L Research after Don died, but replaced the spiritual core around which it all revolves with something very different.

It used to be that the Cassiopaea community looked like "the intellectual option" compared with this, while this one looked to be all about New Age-style love and light with little of the mind happening beyond that.

Now the two have become so strikingly different that it's overtly a matter of which fundamental "spirituality" is seen as positive, or of value.

All kinds of spiritual resources were sucked into the Cassiopaean Experiment in the past: which books contain the best information (in relation to more discerning and multi-layered presentations of positive spirituality), plenty derived from or quoted from such works, plenty of discussion, plenty of time and energy, and people into all of it. Great "building materials" for further work and positive use.

But when looking at what it all ended up amounting to, it's pretty depressing. So I hope to extract some good stuff and place it here, over time, and see what people do with it, if anything. It seems like a good thing to do in parallel with rebuilding my personal worldview, and striving for a better synthesis.

Winds of change are blowing through this community, but it's not yet clear where it's heading. A different kind of vacuum seems to have been left with Carla's passing. At the same time, there's the advance of the newly and more accurately retranscribed Ra material. Following the current lull in activity, what next?

It will be interesting to see what happens over time. All I can bring (on this level at least), is a fairly random sprinkling of complementary information here and there; with no claims as to how well I have "mastered" anything in practice.

One day, I hope to put together something a little bit like what I did with the "CassWiki" website, but differently centered, not concerned with presenting the consensus of a community, but rather simply accurately presenting the structure of ideas, and their relations, in the Law of One, the Fourth Way teaching, and other things of a basically compatible (or meaningful to cross-reference) nature. But that's not an idea for the present, unless others are interested in engaging in a similar kind of effort.

[Foha]

I'm having to play some catch-up in this drama a little bit, but it's keeping my interest so far.
In any case, welcome

[Asolsutsesvyl]

I'm having to play some catch-up in this drama a little bit, but it's keeping my interest so far.
In any case, welcome

I hope to keep my part in "the drama" reasonable and fairly detached, something often missing in what's found on the web regarding these matters. I'm also going about it slowly, focusing more on other things. But it's prominent in my mind because so many things come together with it, and the 2015 personal turning point.

I feel welcome. At first, I feared that the range of thinking, interests, and approaches here would be too different from my own, but I've found that there's a great diversity.

And so, for example, while I tend to dismiss some of the non-L/L channeled material others are into as not personally of any interest, I've also found that there's people here who are more intellectually vital than I had expected. It was here that I got critical feedback on the things which I initially shared both here and on the Cassiopaea forum - not there! It goes with the more open approach, I think, people thinking and sharing with much less inhibition.

[Asolsutsesvyl]

Before that 2015 turning point, and apart from involvement in any spiritual community, there's a scattered collection of things which also enter into my spiritual approach and "story". It's difficult to group into a single clear "theme".

One trail, from around 2005 and on, is a clear interest in hobby software programming, and a changing interest in computer science topics afterwards. Metaphysically, I've developed a vaguely "Platonist" bent, deeply attracted by an inner vision of abstract patterns and processes at different levels of reality.

It ties into a curiously divided attitude I've had towards spirituality my whole life. Too rational for religion, too mystical for atheism, and in two minds about various "New Age"-like topics.

One the one hand, I'm submerged in intense inner experience with mystical elements. On the other hand, in most cases I instinctively maintain a mental distance from embracing frameworks, explanations, and beliefs. Often I feel torn, sometimes pendulating.

There's the "objective mind" and the "subjective mind", and the contrast is often very sharp, and I can ignore neither.


Why did the "Cassiopaean" information (the whole associated synthesis on the web) look so great? Because it looked like a great leap towards bridging that gap, reconciling the rational and mystical. But that's how it looked before I had more knowledge and experience. Now it appears to be a "synthesis" which inverts and destroys both science and mysticism, instead of furthering them and bringing something greater.

I'm still striving towards at least a personal greater synthesis of the rational and mystical. But I have different expectations now; it will have to be looser and more tentative, for starters, because otherwise it seems impossible to avoid painting oneself into a corner. (My new bias is to be extremely skeptical as soon as something is simplified into ideology, as ideology amounts to an oversimplified approach to reality. Systems thinking seems a promising way to grow insight beyond ideological boundaries.)

Maybe some themes will develop in the thread "Computer science metaphors for the spiritual". I also posted about a current personal software project, though this community is an unlikely one for discussion of command-line audio generation.

[Asolsutsesvyl]

I feel like fully wrapping up the "story" of the transition between the communities, before moving on to more wider reflections and things about life and learning.

As mentioned in the other thread, I officially left the Cassiopaea community's "Fellowship of the Cosmic Mind" in September, 2019. There, I describe more about the philosophical differences, etc. Here, I'll write more about what happened.

I felt I couldn't write all I had on my mind while still being a member of the Fellowship (FOTCM) which is the "club" (officially a religion) which is the inner part of the Cassiopaea community. As I mentioned before, I was really not sure what to say to them, with all I had on my mind. I finally came to the conclusion that the best I could do, having already discussed personal matters in the past, was to post a few things which may generally stimulate thinking and then simply leave.

I sent a short message about having decided to leave on September the 24th. I mention this because of a symbolic event. A few days after, while walking one evening, I bumped my head on a sign while looking down, a "slow down near the school" type of sign. I found that I had not yet gotten a response to the message (as it would turn out, the person usually handling it was away for the week). After posting a message on the members' board, the next day I was removed. Then followed a sense of inner expansiveness and healing which has gone on since then.

The advice to "just leave" is the standard advice of the Cassiopaea community to those who no longer fit; if you don't like what they are about, it's the mature and free-will-respecting way to proceed. I do agree that it would have been pointless to stay around and argue with a crowd not open to the thinking I had developed.

And so, this is the email I sent on the 24th...

Hello,

After a long time of being really torn on my membership, I think it's time to simply leave.

The truth is, I don't belong in the community, at any rate as it has developed.

It wasn't easy to realize that there are irreconcilable differences, but knowing that there are, I'm not going to pretend otherwise.

I simply request that you end my membership ASAP.

This is final, after much thinking.

When some days had passed without a response, I quoted it and added the following on the members' board:

I sent this both as email to [the address] and as a PM to [forum admin] on the evening of Sep 24 (with the same heading: "Leaving the Fellowship").

I would have hoped that in the three days since, there would have been some response (and preferably in the direction of going ahead with the request) - but there's been none.

So now I re-post my simple request to leave here.
[the text quoted above]

P.S. Since this is going to be read by various people who may subjectively prefer that I not leave. Please do not waste your nor my time and energy with "do not leave" replies. I simply mean it when I want to leave.

I was feeling some inner upheaval. I wrote what I wrote with a simple intention: making it unnecessary to respond, deciding in advance that I would not make any reply.

Anyway, I checked replies a couple of times before just leaving it. First, a few short, polite responses came in, expressing the basic sentiment: "Okay, you are leaving. Realities diverge. Take care." I remember that one member seemed to feel something in the air, writing a quick note about being wary of 4D STS influences.

A bit later, some invisible switch seemed to have been flipped. A member expressed a new sentiment: "You are playing the group and creating drama. You suck." The member seemed to expect that, like some others had in the past, I would jump in and make it a very drawn-out and manipulative good-bye.

Along with that post, I saw that others had come in very quickly following that turn in direction. One member quoted my line about having "irreconcilable differences" with the Fellowship, and concluded that I was so unreasonable that I probably wouldn't get along with anyone in the world. Another member pointed out I may be "slightly egocentric" in connection with seeming to identify as 'intellectual' in another discussion.

It was as if I was rapidly growing little "horns" in the eyes of the commenters, now that I was no longer "us" but rather "them" instead. It was fascinating, actually, to watch. But after reading that influx of posts, I let it be. I'd had enough of what began to feel like an inadvertent "scratch and sniff" test, revealing something I'd rather not remain in.

How blind had I been to not clearly see similar tendencies when the group directed it towards others in the past? I was suddenly reminded of one member who, years ago, had criticized the group by comparing its behavior to immaturity he remembered from the schoolyard. Perhaps it was simply the pattern of what was accepted and not accepted which differed. That's why I had earlier "fit in" with the Fellowship, while in school I had been bullied.

The next day I received two polite emails, each from an admin, confirming my removal. The two are, in a way, people fairly like myself, except that so far, they have not faced any irreconcilable differences standing in the way of their continued journeys with that community. And while I remember them as generally nice, they don't feel the stench which has slowly intensified around them over the years.

Half a year later, March 15, I finally tied up a remaining loose end, by getting my 2011 anti-defamation testimonial for the group unpublished. It was on the website "cassiopaea-cult.com", where they counter what's written on "cassiopaeacult.com" and elsewhere. I had let it remain in part for the sake of countering lies, by actual conman and black magick practitioner Vincent Bridges, et al. But keeping my distance to that does not mean I have to keep supporting the group. I emailed:

Hello,

I have decided that I can no longer stand by the words I wrote here:

[link to now-removed article]

I request the removal of my old testimonial. Its absence will be of no significance in relation to the old defamation which is countered on that site. I do not support the work of Vincent Bridges et al., and will not do so in the future. The description of the community is however far from my current views.

The request was promptly responded to, the old article deleted. By then, I no longer found it ethical to support the Cassiopaea group, either. In that, I largely agree with what Montalk has to say.

[Ymarsakar]

Very interesting and useful. Thanks.

As I perceive things from my pov (a shard of co creation), Satan or if you prefer, Orion type entities that are deceptively polarizing, have gained root hack access to all of humanity's minds at one point or another. As well as emotions.

Thus there is no "point" in joining communities just to fight with other communities. The faction one should be fighting, is invisible and never shows itself, and merely hides behind human shields. If this triggers fear... that is not the intent. Rather, the more you know, the more they know you, but what is the alternative.

Any human I know, including family or long friends, can be hijacked to attack me. Because they are not aware. While this may cause paranoia in people at different levels of awareness, there is a critical change in awareness. If anyone or everyone can be hacked/hijacked... what is the point of fearing and fighting with Other people? This idea that if you are in community/Blue team and that the reason you are good and the other community/red team is bad, only makes sense if you think one side is different. If everyone is equal under the eyes of Satan or God... then there's no point. I could be on the right team today, and that team would be crazy shadow workers tomorrow. Potentially. That's the surprise factor. There's no inherent stability here. People can choose to polarize. Or they can be deceived into doing things that are not the best.

There are certain things in this Realm, that the more you know of, the higher chances of you being corrupted, because the dark Matrix system red flags you for special attention. So the more you know... the more it knows you are trying to break through. But break through, and things get easier or at least clearer.

Ah... Change the world or Change One self?

[Patrick]

It's an interesting way of looking at what I understand to be the influences that our own angels (now negative angels) have over us.  I mean they are supposed to be a part of our system of guidance, but some of them were seduced by Orion/Satan.  Am I closer to understanding your point of view ?

Questioner: Actually, the question I intended was how do they get here? By what means of moving?

Ra: I am Ra. In the mechanism of the calling the movement is as you would expect; that is, the entities are within your planetary influence and are, having come through the quarantine web, free to answer such calling.

The temptations are offered by those negative entities of what you would call your inner planes. These, shall we say, dark angels have been impressed by the service-to-self path offered by those which have come through quarantine from days of old and these entities, much like your angelic presences of the positive nature, are ready to move in thought within the inner planes of this planetary influence working from time/space to space/time.

The mechanism of the fifth-density entity is from density to density and is magical in nature. The fourth density, of itself, is not capable of building the highway into the energy web. However, it is capable of using that which has been left intact. These entities are, again, the Orion entities of fourth density.

[Ymarsakar]

It's an interesting way of looking at what I understand to be the influences that our own angels (now negative angels) have over us.  I mean they are supposed to be a part of our system of guidance, but some of them were seduced by Orion/Satan.  Am I closer to understanding your point of view ?

Questioner: Actually, the question I intended was how do they get here? By what means of moving?

Ra: I am Ra. In the mechanism of the calling the movement is as you would expect; that is, the entities are within your planetary influence and are, having come through the quarantine web, free to answer such calling.

The temptations are offered by those negative entities of what you would call your inner planes. These, shall we say, dark angels have been impressed by the service-to-self path offered by those which have come through quarantine from days of old and these entities, much like your angelic presences of the positive nature, are ready to move in thought within the inner planes of this planetary influence working from time/space to space/time.

The mechanism of the fifth-density entity is from density to density and is magical in nature. The fourth density, of itself, is not capable of building the highway into the energy web. However, it is capable of using that which has been left intact. These entities are, again, the Orion entities of fourth density.

If you want a full and comprehensive esoteric review of what this is (and it is not religion, dogma, or the personal beliefs of a few select elites), there's 2 or 3 things.

So let's look at the data. The more data we have (Law of One, Quo/ La), the more we can research.

https://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthre...?tid=14612

I was searching for more information on the Law of One YHVH references, and came across this old thread. Reading the first few posts, and also the last one made by me, is enough as an intro to what this topic has to do with things. Why people get afraid of demons/Satan. It is a genetic heritage left over by thousands of years of distortion. Sorta like fear of lizards/dragons. They Drilled too Deep! Which seems like a fictional Dwarf reference, but in fact Atlantis DID drill too deep at one point...

I can't post the rest of the comment ,because of a red page error. So i will send a msg.

[Ymarsakar]

The distortion effect over YHVH is very old, and this means we have ample "data" from which to analyze how this works. This is multiple records recording how Orion (or Satan) deceives, confuses, and destroys entire tribes and nations, while pretending to be a good entity. And it is so Successful and unchallenged, to this day, that entire nations and state religions have participated on one side or another.

Iamraw, of course, has their own incarnation experiences in the social collective memory, of how their teachings got "twisted".

Seems to be a data pattern from multiple interventions, densities, and experiences.

It is so powerful, humans can read the text, and then say "there is no evidence of Satanic or Orion deception from Confederation sources". The Confederation does not know of any such ability to hijack human perceptions, you see.

Except... they just read the text talking about it. But they didn't see it. Frequency barrier. Distortion of perception at a root level. Very magical so to speak.

For people here that still think magic is a fantasy and unrealistic, this is perhaps difficult to comprehend. For those that have penetrated the teachings to a certain extent, they may have some familiarity with how workings work.

[Asolsutsesvyl]

I've been planning a short quote roll-up for my earlier time on this forum, gathering the gist of main important exchanges about life and learning, with some added comments.

But I haven't been able to settle on how to begin it. Time dragging out. But now, well, perhaps newer topics can enter first for a simple enough start.

This is growing rather long, so here's in response to Ymarsakar's first post, the rest later.

As I perceive things from my pov (a shard of co creation), Satan or if you prefer, Orion type entities that are deceptively polarizing, have gained root hack access to all of humanity's minds at one point or another. As well as emotions.

I prefer less oversimplified descriptions. Some of your "direct channeling" and related thinking echoes the paradigm I'm well familiar with, including from the Cassiopaea community, in which life in this world is compared to "The Matrix". The most level-headed synthesis rooted in that paradigm I've found so far is Montalk's. (For example, I've linked to his article "Methods of Deception" in places, but there's much else to be found on his website.)

There's many levels and ways of looking at deceptive influence and mind manipulation, but the hopeful part is that where there's a will (and a way for it to be informed and active), there's a way. Jumping briefly to mainstream cognitive psychology, there's books like David DiSalvo's What Makes Your Brain Happy and Why You Should Do the Opposite, where the faults human brains are prone to are explored. Being informed about that gives a person a better position in relation to the messy ways of the physical self, and - as hinted at - also relative to the opposition of marketing/PR and politics and other deceptive influencers at the ordinary level.

As for the fringe stuff, there's many older and newer sorts of descriptions. An older version can be found in Boris Mouravieff's Gnosis books, where the "General Law" of this mixed-influence world patterns normal life and will tempt and attempt to derail the efforts of the person on a genuine esoteric path. "Satan" is identified with the corrupted "Absolute III" governing this world, corresponding to sub-Logos in Ra's terms. I wrote more on that in an old post.

However it is described, how does the "system" attack individuals? Through the ways they respond, in large part, in a battle of sorts between consciousnesses - and at a more basic level, in a battle against a mechanical mold that limits the growth of consciousness and replaces it with superficial concerns and routines which swallow up life.

It isn't quite the same as "root access" being used. But there's often many a gap in the influence of the spirit in directing life, allowing other influences to play the person like an instrument. And, when consciousness does not grow so that a gap is filled, while in other ways a person looks like an up-and-coming threat to more negative influences, they use the opportunity to strike through that gap, with varying consequences.

Thus there is no "point" in joining communities just to fight with other communities. The faction one should be fighting, is invisible and never shows itself, and merely hides behind human shields. If this triggers fear... that is not the intent. Rather, the more you know, the more they know you, but what is the alternative.

I agree with the basic point, as italicized above. I've seen a more general pattern the last half-decade of increasing online "wars" and a generally hysterical climate.

Upon leaving a place where the new great virtue was shaping up to become being a grand "keyboard warrior" battling sociopolitically on social media, I decided to have none of that, and cut out more stuff similar in spirit from the start, and left social media behind.

Here, at first I held back on sharing my old thinking (stuff grown in the old mold and still recognizably the same). I found it more valuable to backtrack and re-examine things more thoroughly first. In the short term that meant having less to say. Currently, I'm beginning to bring out more of a tentative synthesis, with Montalk more or less an inspiration.

I think I've succeeded well in one main thing I've set out to do here, which is to rediscover the missing heart in the spiritual "system" I was familiar with. More on that later...

Any human I know, including family or long friends, can be hijacked to attack me. Because they are not aware. While this may cause paranoia in people at different levels of awareness, there is a critical change in awareness. If anyone or everyone can be hacked/hijacked... what is the point of fearing and fighting with Other people?

The paranoid version is at the heart of the Cassiopaea community. I've found that, in hindsight, being influenced by a teaching lopsided in that direction, made me drastically overestimate how "dangerous" people in general in life are for me, and drastically underestimate how detrimental the effect of the propaganda I had taken in was. I brought the worst sabotage on myself through the stuff I had swallowed.

Later, I saw the poisonousness of what I had swallowed, and went through an inwardly harsh detox over time. What I am left with is some questions. How much have I missed, how many potential friendships, how many meaningful exchanges, and not just for me but also opportunities to help others? When I was thinking in advance that "they" have simply chosen to be asleep, years went by in which simpler and more basic positive exchanges were missed.

Leaving the Cassiopaea community was not just about leaving one community and then, say, looking for another. In the long term, it's more like leaving a little island and beginning to explore the oceans again. In the short term, it's even more about recovering an older understanding, something I used to have, something simple and heartfelt which allows much more connection with others - even when they don't have the same or any spiritual system in mind.

This idea that if you are in community/Blue team and that the reason you are good and the other community/red team is bad, only makes sense if you think one side is different. If everyone is equal under the eyes of Satan or God... then there's no point. I could be on the right team today, and that team would be crazy shadow workers tomorrow. Potentially. That's the surprise factor. There's no inherent stability here. People can choose to polarize. Or they can be deceived into doing things that are not the best.

Well, yes. I'm not really on the same inner footing anymore. I used to question myself to an extreme, having no way of feeling sure that my life had any value. That's one factor which made the "cult" work for me then, but growing past it made me grow apart so that there was simply no way back to believing in the group as the great collective near-infallible "teacher" and light of the world it presented itself as.

Now no group like that can work for me. But some people, for a variety of reasons, have to work within that old paradigm. As a stage of a journey, whatever the personal journey as a whole turns out to ultimately be like. And whatever the specific group and some of its characteristics may be. Montalk pointed to the problems where people have an ego-based need to belong, but he missed the category of idealistic self-questioners with undersized egos who are driven by ideals above community, and for whom there's more of a general hope for personal development, if they don't remain stuck in a toxic mold too long.

For example, there's a significant portion of people in the Cassiopaea community who would have fit just as well here or in other places, if they simply hadn't been convinced by the group's self-presenting of claims of intellectual and idealistic superiority (on bogus yet sophisticated grounds). And then - for another kind of what I think is an example - another member here, 'ledgerlines', briefly came to this forum and earlier pointed out that there's a French "Leo" group claiming to be the Leo-successors that the Cassiopaeans have prophesied. We mutually wished the best in a later exchange, though I don't share the conviction that that group is great.

What happens to people who do grow and polarize, towards positive potential but within the confines of a defective mold? Or, as Gurdjieff called it, "crystallizing on a wrong foundation". Go far enough, and following the pain and strain of inwardly breaking down and redoing your personal development, you can emerge outside the bad mold with a purer and more well-rounded version of what you had earlier gained.

There are certain things in this Realm, that the more you know of, the higher chances of you being corrupted, [...]

I used to think, in my teens, that stupidity is intelligence with something added to it. That's another way of looking at such corruption, and/or what makes it possible. "Dumb as a rock?" What active stupidity can a rock manifest? But a genius can express great stupidity, all it takes is a little something which is like "error" of sorts added to the genius, or the genius formed around it. Most stupidity is somewhere in-between the extremes.

To that can be added that a great extreme of genius-with-some-error lines up well with how some spiritual sources describe the greatest evil minds in the cosmos. The pattern seems to scale from our level to the very top.

Well, minding how some matters of mind affect the mind is not always simple, but it's key to avoiding much of the worst that can happen in terms of subtle corruption.

Ah... Change the world or Change One self?

Ironically, more than a decade ago, I became convinced in several stages to give up on changing the world and force it away from all the wrongness seen in it, and instead focus on changing myself. That's how I first changed when I became committed to the best spiritual ideals I found in the Cassiopaea community. Later, it turns out that their core leadership has developed in the exact opposite direction over the years.

Now? I wouldn't mind changing a few things positively here and there in the world, but I don't expect much. But as for changing myself, there's only so much you can do with that focus before you have to grow a different way of approaching life. With neither old driving force really there, what's there is both simpler and more difficult to describe. More on that later...

[Ymarsakar]

The question when put to the self and will, "change the world or change one self" is very polarizing. One of the most polarizing, because it hits deep into the Service to Self vs Service to Other choice.

This choice is not made by hitting the check box next to your preferred polarity. It is made with every thing you do, think, and are.

To change the world, required me to overwhelm the free will of those in the world and partially enslave them to my will.

To change the Self, to destroy or renew the self, did not require any permission or free will infringement of others.

It sounds like because you made this realization, Aso, you were able to penetrate to the deeper meaning of polarization work.

Now you are ready to bring your light and internal reality to the world. This is an element of manifestation or co creation. Because we are fractals of creation, children of the Divine Source/God, we hold similar abilities to create or destroy. By changing our One self, we also begin bringing the Light of change to the One Creation. Because the Law of One sees all as divine.

This is often mirrored in the life times of different adepts and seekers. They go into "closed door meditation and cultivation", maybe for decades, and then come out with these esoteric mystical abilities and understandings, as if the man went in a cocoon and came out a butterfly.

I first encountered this bifurcation in a novel game from Japan: Rewrite.

People are free to develop where they want. It is just funny when they end up like the positive 4th density wanderer that incarnated on Venus and ended up 4th density negative. Surprise!

Venus, whatever Venus actually is, has esoteric high energy of love and comfort. But the low energy vibrations are corrosion and acid.

One person I read is the writer of Veil of Reality, and he often mentions Gurdjief. Very interesting work, all in all. If I had seen this before 2016, I likely would have been unprepared and fallen into a situation similar to yours, Aso.

Good thing I have retrogrades in my natal chart... haha.

However it is described, how does the "system" attack individuals? Through the ways they respond, in large part, in a battle of sorts between consciousnesses - and at a more basic level, in a battle against a mechanical mold that limits the growth of consciousness and replaces it with superficial concerns and routines which swallow up life.

It isn't quite the same as "root access" being used. But there's often many a gap in the influence of the spirit in directing life, allowing other influences to play the person like an instrument. And, when consciousness does not grow so that a gap is filled, while in other ways a person looks like an up-and-coming threat to more negative influences, they use the opportunity to strike through that gap, with varying consequences.

Indeed, that feels accurate. The sixth density negative lineage is like an AI. They send trojans and "viruses" out to duplicate themselves, but they require root access to the OS, so they often trick people into providing administrator passwords and access. At that point, they can do a lot more. This works for individuals, entities, souls, as well as world governments.

Eisenhower made the Greada treaty because the military industrial complex (infiltrated already) was so afraid of disarming their nuclear arsenal and so they demanded technological transfer. The Zeta R outcasts agreed, but this tech transfer was the trap. True power came from spiritual harmony and polarization, not from silicon technology...

By making this agreement on behalf of America, in secret, this opened the doors. America had, unofficially and de facto, surrendered to the 4th Reich, but they did not realize it at the time.

Other civilizations, 5th density or higher, tend to be alert to this issue and so they close the back doors off. Not always successfully at the 4th density.

Obtaining root access and turning a 3rd density world into a 4th negative density farm world just like them, may be the ideal, but I am sure alternatives are satisfactory too. The telempathic "nudges" and greetings recorded via Don's questions in the Law of One, by Jim, concerning Carla is very interesting. ALthough I am unsure how many people who do not utilize psychic and channeling abilities, can comprehend of it.

It would be easier to comprehend in a tv show... heh. Or X Files.

[Asolsutsesvyl]

On the topic of games and their stories (and in turn also destructive AI governance and exploding planets and demons and more)...

The first thread I posted would have been "Phantasy Star, between Ra and the C's", had it not been for the forum's filter, which reacted to some word or other in the text. After sorting that out with the staff here, I began with something different, and the "something" ended up the larger and more pressing topic on my mind.

Well, the Phantasy Star games are among the smaller number of what I played in my childhood and teens that I find more interesting in a lasting way. I posted generally about some others and related ideas in a thread about sci-fi here.

Originally made in 1987-1993, the inspiration behind those games is tied to Star Wars, but a bit different - and themes can be recognized in the later Cassiopaean channeling. The thread lists some, and the story of the game which came out in Japan in 1989 parallels the Cassiopaean "space ark" story element found in the 1997-08-09 session, along with their idea that "Japan" is a clue to the culture of a destroyed planet, if you accept the game's story of planetary destruction and evacuation as relevant.

I've become convinced that the Cassiopaeans "borrowed" from the series of four games, which happens to be the most famous role-playing game series ever published by Sega. (Sega, a name which shortened the earlier company name of "Service Games", heh.) Though my imagination has been the most stimulated by the third game, less obviously tied to Cassiopaean sessions, and originally named "Successors of Time" (as in, those who take the place of time or its role at its end) until it somehow became "Generations of Doom" in translation.

[Patrick]

...published by Sega. (Sega, a name which shortened the earlier company name of "Service Games", heh.)...

Wow I never knew that.  That's interesting.

[Ymarsakar]

I did see a game on Steam, phantasy star online 2, and there was an anime series or two touching upon an intro to it.

As far as I know and have research verified, Japan is a relic of Lemuria/Mu/Atlantis. One of the cultural groups split during a Flood. Not sure if this was during Mu or Atlantis however. Given their location though.. Mu.

The Japanese English visual nove, House in Fata Morgana (also on steam) was an excellent catalyst.

Some older individuals, sometimes really like Space battleship Yamato. Maybe because it has a similar plot as Battlestar Galactica. Maybe people are remembering past dissolved soul memories?

[Asolsutsesvyl]

Continuing the video game side-track for a little bit...

I did see a game on Steam, phantasy star online 2, and there was an anime series or two touching upon an intro to it.

As far as I know and have research verified, Japan is a relic of Lemuria/Mu/Atlantis. One of the cultural groups split during a Flood. Not sure if this was during Mu or Atlantis however. Given their location though.. Mu.

The Japanese English visual nove, House in Fata Morgana (also on steam) was an excellent catalyst.

The newer Phantasy Star Online games are not as interesting to me; they borrow basic themes, story elements, naming, etc., while spinning out new things for a new generation of gaming experience. I think the deeper inspiration which slipped into the making of the PS games, whatever it is associated with, can be found in the most concentrated forms in the original four games. About those, I still plan to eventually write about the story for PS III in detail, similarly to how I did for PS II (producing a write-up better than that on Wikipedia). I made a few notes about that in the dedicated thread.

I know some people theorize about how the long-gone history of nations, and their geographical locations, is linked to what the modern minds belonging to the same peoples or areas come up with, through some "ancestral memory" type of inspiration. But I think such factors tend to be dwarfed by individual souls, and the influences working with them and with groups of creative minds in a state of flow. So, for example, I think it's more an accident of history that Japan ended up being where the kinds of people live who made (and in part still make) a great new cultural export.

[...] Why people get afraid of demons/Satan. It is a genetic heritage left over by thousands of years of distortion. Sorta like fear of lizards/dragons. They Drilled too Deep! Which seems like a fictional Dwarf reference, but in fact Atlantis DID drill too deep at one point...

While on the topic of games in connection with history, this reminded me of Chrono Trigger, the SNES RPG with the time travel adventure. It captures the idea of a demon feeding off of the life of a world in the form of "Lavos", a planetary parasite which crashed down to Earth and drilled down into it in prehistory. Later, during an ice age, a civilization modeled after ideas of Atlantis enters the picture.

The magical Kingdom of Zeal is airborne. Its inhabitants, those allowed to live in it, are genetically set apart from the lower cast of the Earthbound, who live in primitive poverty on the ground and below, and end up used as slave labor. The queen becomes possessed by Lavos when consumed with the striving for a greater power source for the civilization.

When the accursed machine directly harnessing Lavos' energy is moved closer to the source, and placed at a great new palace at the bottom of the ocean, disaster results. Lavos stirs, the crust of the planet is ripped open, and the civilization comes crashing down, literally, in a great fiery rain. Thereafter, as the ice age ends, the survivors of the two peoples end up mixing and surviving as one.

I find that era more interesting than the fictional present and the two futures (with or without a planet-sterilizing new fiery apocalypse). A key story element is how the greatest three scientists of Zeal ended up sucked into space-time distortions, ending up in other times, preparing the stage for later time and dimensional travel and other dynamics, including especially in the sequel Chrono Cross.

For expanding significantly on that, I think using another thread would be best. I'll end this little part with the note that the sequel, with its interesting ideas of multidimensional time, takes place in a new present, following a "time crash" engineered by one of the three Zeal scientists, who has a grand hyper-dimensional plan for preventing a new other-dimensional threat from undoing creation by swallowing up more and more timelines into non-manifest "darkness".

(Well, for more general and abstract thought of the kind which such stories can lead to, maybe the thread "Sci-Fi and awareness of Infinite Possibility" may be better.)

[Ymarsakar]

A lot of certain media entertainment is channeled. Gene Roddenbery's modeling of Star Trek partially on the Council of 9 as well as Deep Space 9 (season opening about the ancients) being... probably based on the Council of 9 notes.

What makes Japan special is that too many of their niche circles making their entertainment, are channeling information that they don't consciously realize.

For example, there are many fictional settings in japanese games about an ancient civilization where advanced technology was based on these "stones" or crystals. That is essentially Mu and Atlantis.

The way genetics work, the actions of one's ancestors are stored as a type of data multidimensionally in the DNA itself. Epigenetics is how people study it now.

Japan has too many of these weird ideas (not the mainstream pop culture) that come from their manga and visual novel circles, that I have verified to be accurate or based on real historical events. Many works are basically one level or two levels down from direct channeling sessions.

I do remember playing Chrono Trigger on some kind of playstation emulator. But I sensed that things were translated often enough that I couldn't get (detect) the truth or falseness of the fiction. I generally get telempathic hints that something is wrong or inaccurate, although at the time they were rather undeveloped and I ignored them enough so that it had to be pretty strong to trigger the detect criteria. Chrono Trigger was interesting and I felt it had something useful in it for me, but I also felt that I would only access most of it if I could read the japanese original.

On the topic of time wars, David Wilcock just made a 4 hour briefing on the time war disclosures and why Q keeps talking about the Plan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZXZIlWh8vk He also repeated some new mateiral concerning SG 1 and Babylon 5 being based on concrete Air Force military operations and psychic training methods (the Psi core with P0 to P10 strength levels)

I have heard stories of 4th density or late 3rd density "Pleiadians" that fight draconians using strong telepathic abilities. Or telekinetics. There's a pretty good game out recently called Control that utilizes these telekinetic abilities.

[Aion]

Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross are both fantastic games with lots to unpack spiritually if you read well in to it. One of my favorites.

[meadow-foreigner]

Continuing the video game side-track for a little bit...

I did see a game on Steam, phantasy star online 2, and there was an anime series or two touching upon an intro to it.

As far as I know and have research verified, Japan is a relic of Lemuria/Mu/Atlantis. One of the cultural groups split during a Flood. Not sure if this was during Mu or Atlantis however. Given their location though.. Mu.

The Japanese English visual nove, House in Fata Morgana (also on steam) was an excellent catalyst.

The newer Phantasy Star Online games are not as interesting to me; they borrow basic themes, story elements, naming, etc., while spinning out new things for a new generation of gaming experience. I think the deeper inspiration which slipped into the making of the PS games, whatever it is associated with, can be found in the most concentrated forms in the original four games. About those, I still plan to eventually write about the story for PS III in detail, similarly to how I did for PS II (producing a write-up better than that on Wikipedia). I made a few notes about that in the dedicated thread.

I know some people theorize about how the long-gone history of nations, and their geographical locations, is linked to what the modern minds belonging to the same peoples or areas come up with, through some "ancestral memory" type of inspiration. But I think such factors tend to be dwarfed by individual souls, and the influences working with them and with groups of creative minds in a state of flow. So, for example, I think it's more an accident of history that Japan ended up being where the kinds of people live who made (and in part still make) a great new cultural export.

[...] Why people get afraid of demons/Satan. It is a genetic heritage left over by thousands of years of distortion. Sorta like fear of lizards/dragons. They Drilled too Deep! Which seems like a fictional Dwarf reference, but in fact Atlantis DID drill too deep at one point...

While on the topic of games in connection with history, this reminded me of Chrono Trigger, the SNES RPG with the time travel adventure. It captures the idea of a demon feeding off of the life of a world in the form of "Lavos", a planetary parasite which crashed down to Earth and drilled down into it in prehistory. Later, during an ice age, a civilization modeled after ideas of Atlantis enters the picture.

The magical Kingdom of Zeal is airborne. Its inhabitants, those allowed to live in it, are genetically set apart from the lower cast of the Earthbound, who live in primitive poverty on the ground and below, and end up used as slave labor. The queen becomes possessed by Lavos when consumed with the striving for a greater power source for the civilization.

When the accursed machine directly harnessing Lavos' energy is moved closer to the source, and placed at a great new palace at the bottom of the ocean, disaster results. Lavos stirs, the crust of the planet is ripped open, and the civilization comes crashing down, literally, in a great fiery rain. Thereafter, as the ice age ends, the survivors of the two peoples end up mixing and surviving as one.

I find that era more interesting than the fictional present and the two futures (with or without a planet-sterilizing new fiery apocalypse). A key story element is how the greatest three scientists of Zeal ended up sucked into space-time distortions, ending up in other times, preparing the stage for later time and dimensional travel and other dynamics, including especially in the sequel Chrono Cross.

For expanding significantly on that, I think using another thread would be best. I'll end this little part with the note that the sequel, with its interesting ideas of multidimensional time, takes place in a new present, following a "time crash" engineered by one of the three Zeal scientists, who has a grand hyper-dimensional plan for preventing a new other-dimensional threat from undoing creation by swallowing up more and more timelines into non-manifest "darkness".

Well, why not expand significantly on that?

[Asolsutsesvyl]

I've thought about doing so, but not gotten to it. (It's that way with various other ideas of possible subjects to discuss, from the most light-hearted to the most serious.) In part it's been so quite generally for me in recent times. And in part, motivation to participate here has waxed and waned, and I've now been away for some time. Well, it could happen sooner or later.

In October and November last year, I had a slow-going and more in-depth exchange with a reader concerning a more serious topic, and a large part of what's kept me feeling so inwardly bogged down: what's been going on in the Cassiopaea community and the possible nature of it all. Actually, things ended up seeming more optimistic for the good souls trapped in their groupthink; from what I learned, the recent intellectual decline over there has been so marked that it may end up significantly easier than I had feared for others to break away and recover.

[Asolsutsesvyl]

Wrapping up some big things in part not discussed yet... In large part @Azarnac, given our earlier discussions, including last in the thread "Are those who don't honor logic deceitful egomaniacs?", but I also think this summarizes where I've gradually later arrived at in a way worth adding here. I'll check for responses, but otherwise I've taken a step back from this forum, as I go through another major step of changing direction on my personal journey. There's been some interesting exchanges over time on this forum, good times for the most part, and here I'll simply note my thanks to a bunch of people who I won't try to list.

Lately, I've focused less on abstract philosophy, and I've grown gradually jaded about the point of focusing on questions such as all being matter vs. spirit over the past few years. Because, I think everything of importance exists between the two absolutes, and all the interesting questions are outside the big old battles of thought. All the interesting inquiries fall between the cracks, and usually seem to be captured poorly by formal philosophical frameworks. (Maybe not all the time, to be fair.) Using the usual words and concepts, the field of attention is mostly drawn away from the mental contents they don't fit, and so from most of the interesting stuff.

I think the nature of it all is ultimately mind rather than matter, in the sense of consciousness, but that the universal mind is many steps removed from shaping specifically our experience, so that saying that the universal mind does something is no more useful than saying God does something as an explanation. (I.e., it doesn't really explain anything.) That's why I don't care so much about minimal frameworks tying all to universal mind; the explanatory power seems limited to the most abstract philosophical sense of it being a fit.

Also, I've gradually given up an attachment to old inner belief system structures (mental and emotional associations, and all the rest). It's like to step across a threshold towards the spirit, the first foot can be put forwards by engaging with a spiritual teaching, but the second foot can only be put forward after giving up the spiritual teaching. That's my personal experience, or what seems like a good summary of it -- this is not about the old cult, but about the more general larger spiritual landscape. I increasingly found the larger remaining belief-structures inside to be a wall, or veil, between I and spirit. I've found that I've lost nothing as I've listened to skeptics, learning what I can from them, rather they help me get rid of all the dead weight. Though I sometimes need a reminder to look beyond whatever focus has been recent habit.

These things bring me to how currently, I go through a great dislike of Western non-organized spirituality (or the types of teaching I am personally more familiar with), alongside organized religion. I think there's a self-destructive core to much of it, with the dreams of better futures and associated hopes and fears based mainly on veiled airheaded contrarianism, and if you follow the implications, semi-veiled attempts to reverse the clock on the progress of science and technology (and of humanism, too). "Alternative" people (to use that terribly bad popular terminology) essentially strive in directions that lead right back to the past and all its problems while lost in dreams that something totally different and better will happen instead. An alternative to that "alternative" is needed if there's to be anything worthwhile on the collective level, and it hasn't been invented yet; we obviously live in the wrong era for that. It may take centuries before anything sensible develops (if it does).

I think this pro- vs. anti-science culture war will be a long-term mess, the current hysterical pandemic era neither the beginning nor the end of it, just a more intense little chapter of the story. And I actually think the best hope for the future may be for science and skeptics to "win" until spirituality and "alternative" fields connected to it as popularly known in the present fade away, so that there can be a later reborn spirituality which is not mostly based on ancient rotten habits of thought (all the nowadays well-known cognitive biases and problematic patterns...).

First I think humanity needs to destroy the power of deceptive rhetoric if it is to be able to increase quality of thought in society and develop worthwhile philosophies much further. I think AI can be an answer to that, actually. Imagine a "spam filter" for manipulative patterns of communication, applied to all political discourse, and to the communications of governments and people in positions of power -- and also to screen all those who offer services and goods they claim will help others. Otherwise, there's the ancient problem that deception is produced much more quickly, and spread much more quickly, than it can be countered, dragging the overall level down terribly. I think technology is the only hope humanity has of growing past that obstacle. If the noise of bad rhetoric can be blocked like spam across society, so it no longer drags minds and hearts down, maybe something like a second enlightenment era and philosophy can then in turn fully develop and have an influence analogous to the first such historical period. Eventually there may be a bridging of the gap to a better spirituality.

(Though a bit sci-fi, such an idea doesn't sound technically unrealistic to me in considering what could be developed over the next few decades, rather, it seems socially, culturally, and politically unrealistic. I think the best approach to filtering out manipulative garbage would be to mostly rely on examining the structure of what is communicated, forming a cultural standard of aiming to make messages logically scrutable and rejecting communication crafted to be unscrutable as unacceptable. Ideologically, what I vaguely dream about here is at an almost 180 degree difference from everything e.g. Facebook represents. And it's in complete opposition to everything populistic and the attitudes of most "alternative" movements.)

I don't know what the next turning point(s) may be in where I go, inwardly and perhaps otherwise. But a theme came to mind, three stages as described here: "Nietzschean striving vs. the sinkhole of indifference". Maybe I'll end up revisiting philosophy differently at some point in the future.

[zedro]

I think this pro- vs. anti-science culture war will be a long-term mess....

Especially when the deception is that false dichotomy you present, the real question is, what is science, and who gets to say what it is. It's a battle of narratives driven by a war on individual conscience vs hierarchically enforced reality.

First I think humanity needs to destroy the power of deceptive rhetoric if it is to be able to increase quality of thought in society and develop worthwhile philosophies much further. I think AI can be an answer to that, actually. Imagine a "spam filter" for manipulative patterns of communication, applied to all political discourse, and to the communications of governments and people in positions of power -- and also to screen all those who offer services and goods they claim will help others. Otherwise, there's the ancient problem that deception is produced much more quickly, and spread much more quickly, than it can be countered, dragging the overall level down terribly. I think technology is the only hope humanity has of growing past that obstacle. If the noise of bad rhetoric can be blocked like spam across society, so it no longer drags minds and hearts down, maybe something like a second enlightenment era and philosophy can then in turn fully develop and have an influence analogous to the first such historical period. Eventually there may be a bridging of the gap to a better spirituality.

So abandon the seeking of intelligent infinity and replaced with an algorithm that is assumed to be neutral and not controlled by anyone, but everyone will be essentially subservient to the "truth for the greater good"? Edit: the AI entity now becomes God, all knowing of truth and judges all.

What you describe is the result of one of 2 choices. I choose the opposite of any Centralized control system, or that of an AI based super-cult. I choose to eat organic lol.

Edit: I also find it interesting that the conscription of an "AI God" is a substitute for personal seeking, the ultimate gatekeeper. What happens to those who choose not to follow this new artificial God? Is this not the same dichotomy as before, the centralization and control of truth through hierarchy, in lieu of acceptance and cooperation?

[Patrick]

...I actually think the best hope for the future may be for science and skeptics to "win" until spirituality and "alternative" fields connected to it as popularly known in the present fade away, so that there can be a later reborn spirituality...

This is obviously happening already. It has been happening for a couple decades at least and it will only accelerate in my opinion.

"Science" has already empirically disproved the concept of materialism. But it will take a good while before the implications of this becomes obvious to most people. It eventually and naturally leads to the Law of One.

[Asolsutsesvyl]

Half a year later...

I'm posting a few thoughts in a few threads, but other than that I'll probably be mostly inactive here in the future.

zedro, I think we don't have any real chance of understanding one another, but may as well expand on these last thoughts, which are related to what else I'm interested in.

I think this pro- vs. anti-science culture war will be a long-term mess....

Especially when the deception is that false dichotomy you present, the real question is, what is science, and who gets to say what it is. It's a battle of narratives driven by a war on individual conscience vs hierarchically enforced reality.

We do not agree on what science is, nor on what pseudoscience is. I also think that your idea, that the real distinction is one of individual conscience vs hierarchically enforced reality, is a false dichotomy. That's because it's not the case that anything goes, and neither the whims of an individual nor the whims of a hierarchy can decide for reality what it is. Fact and logic is above all individuals and above all hierarchies; it is supreme, and for individuals and organizations to seek, and those who make a decent effort to truly honor that can further science, while those who don't are plainly anti-science.

Clear-cut criteria for what is and is not pseudoscience do, in many but not all cases, allow bypassing battles of narratives. Because a few key details, when examined and found to plainly be so or so, answer questions. When that is the case, there is no battle of narratives, except on the part of those seeking to relativize truth and assert falsehoods. Indeed, an excessive focus on narratives is often a diversion from what really matters.

First I think humanity needs to destroy the power of deceptive rhetoric if it is to be able to increase quality of thought in society and develop worthwhile philosophies much further. I think AI can be an answer to that, actually. Imagine a "spam filter" for manipulative patterns of communication, applied to all political discourse, and to the communications of governments and people in positions of power -- and also to screen all those who offer services and goods they claim will help others. Otherwise, there's the ancient problem that deception is produced much more quickly, and spread much more quickly, than it can be countered, dragging the overall level down terribly. I think technology is the only hope humanity has of growing past that obstacle. If the noise of bad rhetoric can be blocked like spam across society, so it no longer drags minds and hearts down, maybe something like a second enlightenment era and philosophy can then in turn fully develop and have an influence analogous to the first such historical period. Eventually there may be a bridging of the gap to a better spirituality.

So abandon the seeking of intelligent infinity and replaced with an algorithm that is assumed to be neutral and not controlled by anyone, but everyone will be essentially subservient to the "truth for the greater good"? Edit: the AI entity now becomes God, all knowing of truth and judges all.

What you describe is the result of one of 2 choices. I choose the opposite of any Centralized control system, or that of an AI based super-cult. I choose to eat organic lol.

Edit: I also find it interesting that the conscription of an "AI God" is a substitute for personal seeking, the ultimate gatekeeper. What happens to those who choose not to follow this new artificial God? Is this not the same dichotomy as before, the centralization and control of truth through hierarchy, in lieu of acceptance and cooperation?

I didn't think of making an "AI God". But I left the description rather sketchy, so the blanks can be filled in in many ways, including that one. If you think Hollywood and/or doomsday alarmism, then an AI God is probably what you'll think of. But there's also far more decentralized options.

But first, where is the seeking of intelligent infinity in the world at large? And I spoke not of replacing such a nonexistent striving of the masses, but of greatly altering the climate of media and technological communication.

Secondly, you ignore the blatant control of perceived truth through hierarchy involved in influencing/propaganda/PR operations. It's become a more relevant issue than ever. I think it would be great to have a way of filtering media (including social media) messages, to level the playing field, so that people are not simply spammed senseless when one or another interest group gains the upper hand by bying its way to it using algorithms and/or people.

Automated propaganda is still fairly crude, basically similar to what commerical spammers do. When things get fancier, it seems to involve still-rough-enough-to-detect deepfaking. Apart from certain governments who've tried to show off recently, like Russia, there's plenty of unscrupulous groups within the Western world. The "alternative" online worlds are in large part basically, on the whole, owned by interests that spam the world for money and power.

There is also automated debunking, which relies on maintaining databases. It's also crude at the moment. Here, dependable insitutions in the future would need to work on such databases in order for software to then be able to use them and work in a basically trustworthy way.

A different automated bullshit detection is also possible. Many rhetorical patterns have been described, and software could be made to, more generally, recognize them. Textbook deception sometimes simply relies on rhetorical tricks, or follows well-documented and very clear-cut patterns. An automated way of checking for that would be very handy. By itself, it would also not require any huge centralized fact check databases.

Bullshit takes much less time and energy to create than to refute. That's why the only sensible way to treat clear-cut text-book BS-mongers is to treat them like spammers. Otherwise, you are plainly asking to have everythign meaningful be drowned out by deceitful noise.

With awesome filtering, people could get some peace and quiet, and time to actually examine messages in more detail. The intellectual level on social medias could rise if filtering was used to make messages which argue in a clear and basically honest way for anything -- anything at all -- more visible than trashy clickbait and thoughtless slogans.

I'm not suggesting mandatory filtering, or anything even remotely like what China does. I'm suggesting free software which everyone can use as they choose. The reason to use it would be, if it works properly, that it becomes a superior way to search for information.

I do wish, though, that societies would eventually grow up to the point where they do not follow charismatic leaders. Direct democracy could be made to work and scale thanks to the Internet. It would "merely" need to be implemented well, securely.

[Lonebro]

You are very welcome here.  I wish you all blessings as you sort things out with your remarkable experiences.
Blessings and love

[omcasey]

Fascinating read. I am still following many of the links. Our processes are endlessly fascinating. I am not certain they ultimately "get" us anywhere within a given lifetime ( and I say this as a disciplined [ if not accomplished ] 40+ year spiritual student and practitioner ) but to one day see their overall pattern of effect would not only be interesting, to say the very least, but of course incredibly rewarding. Just showing presence for now. I appreciate you sharing your story on these boards.

[Patrick]

Yeah it does not seem to get us anywhere. This whole theatre seems to be for one purpose. To develop our faith. Faith of anything really, but just to develop faith per se. Maybe under the veil is the only place faith can be developed and so not much else matters while we are here.

[omcasey]

Yeah it does not seem to get us anywhere. This whole theatre seems to be for one purpose. To develop our faith. 

I might stop that last sentence at "develop". Certainly it is true. Is it not astonishing the lengths that are needed?

Mind blowing in itself, what a fascinating experiment we are.